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(63)
Mr. Thurburn.--With regard to the other departments—take the Post Office—I suppose it is the Treasurer's duty to see that they have proper checks?
A.--Yes.
Q.--Added up?
A.--You could not add it up until everything is collected.
Q.--It would not take long to make out a balance?
A.--You take the counterfoils and receipts and extract the receipts not issued, add them up and they ought to represent the exact amount on the revenue file. There would be no need to add this book up.
Q.--You think a quarterly balance of that description should be taken out?
A.--Yes.
Q.--Mr. Madar said the book was always balanced.
A.--He called it balancing to add up the totals. He used to wait until everything was collected and then paste on sheets of paper at the end.
Mr. Bird.--When did you suggest your alterations?
A.--Some considerable time ago, with regard to keeping the years separate.
The Chairman.--How long do you think it would take to compare from day to day the counterfoils with the Rent Roll?
A.--I should think half an hour's work in the morning would do it easily—sometimes much less. It would never be very heavy work; the Crown Rent at any rate would not be arduous; the taxes take much longer.
Q.--The thing is to have a check by the Treasurer himself?
A.--Yes.
Q.--Do you think they want an extra man for the purpose of carrying on this daily check?
A.--I don't think they could do it with the staff at present engaged.
Q.--Do you suppose there are any further defalcations?
A.--I do not think there are.
Mr. Thurburn.--Do you think the licences ought to be balanced?
A.--Well, as Auditor I am satisfied with my check.
The Chairman.--Do you consider yourself responsible for the books of 1890?
A.--How do you mean responsible?
Q.--For auditing?
A.--Yes.
Q.--You asked the Treasurer for the books of 1890 sometime in 1891, can you exactly remember when?
A.--No.
Q.--And you never got them balanced?
A.--No.
Q.--And consequently you could not audit them as they should have been done?
A.--No.
Q.--And you did not consider your duty extended beyond 1890?
A.--No.
Q.--It would be impossible for the Treasurer to see that every detail was correct, but they could see that a proper system was in force?
A.--Yes.
The Chairman.--Since the last meeting have you had any reason to change your opinion as to how these frauds were perpetrated?
A.--No.
Q.--That is that Alves gave false receipts to the shroff, or no receipts at all and put the whole amount paid into his pocket?
A.--Yes. In some cases he gave a false receipt to the shroff and in other cases he forged the receipt. He gave the shroff a receipt and when it was returned destroyed it and made out another. There was a case mentioned in court the other day in which he had, after receiving the receipt from the shroff, with the chop upon it, put a figure over the symbol for "$"—in the case I mention the figure "9" which made the receipt $900 more than the receipt chopped by the shroff.
This concluded the evidence adduced before the Commission.
698
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( 63 )
Mr. Thurburn.--With regard to the other departments-take the l'ost Office--I
it is the Treasurer's duty to see that they have proper checks ?
A.-- Yes.
Q.--Added up?
A. You could not add it up, collected.
and
you would not add it up until everything is
suppose
Q-It would not take long to make out a balance?
A.--You take the counterfoils and receipts and extract the receipts not issued, add them up and they ought to represent the exact amount on the revenue file. There would be no need to add this book up.
Q.--You think a quarterly balance of that description should be taken out ?
A.----
-Yes.
Q.-Mr. Madar said the book was always balanced.
A.-He called it balancing to add up the totals. He used to wait until every thing was collected and then paste on sheets of paper at the end.
Mr. Bird.----When did you suggest your alterations ?
A.--Some considerable time ago, with regard to keeping the years separate.
The Chairman.-How long do you think it would take to compare from day to day the counterfoils with the Rent Roll?
A-I should think half an hour's work in the morning would do it easily-some- times much less. It would never be very heavy work; the Crown Rent at any rate would not be arduous; the taxes take much longer.
Q.-The thing is to have a check by the Treasurer himself?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you think they want an extra man for the purpose of carrying on this
daily check ?
A.--I don't think they could do it with the staff at present engaged.
Q.--Do you suppose there are any further defalcations ?
A. I do not think there are.
Mr. Thurburn.-Do you think the licences ought to be balanced?
A. Well, as Auditor I am satisfied with my check,
The Chairman. Do you consider yourself responsible for the books of 1890 ?
A.--How do you mean responsible.
Q.---For auditing?
A. Yes.
Q. You asked the Treasurer for the books of 1890 sometime in 1891, can you exactly remember when ?
A. - No.
Q-And
A.-- No.
you never got them balanced ?
A.---And consequently you could not audit them as they should have been done? A.-No.
Q.--And you did not cousider your duty extended beyond 1890 ?
A. --No.
Q-It would be impossible for the Treasurer to see that every detail was correct, but they could see that a proper system was in force?
A.--Yes.
The Chairman.--Since the last meeting have you had any reason to change your opinion as to how these frauds were perpetrated?
A.--No.
Q--That is that Alves gave false receipts to the shroff, or no receipts at all and put the whole amount paid into his pocket?
A. Yes. In some cases he gave a false receipt to the shroff and in other cases he forged the receipt. He gave the shroff a receipt and when it was returned destroyed it and made out another. There was a case mentioned in court the other day in which he had, after receiving the receipt from the shroff, with the chop upon it, put a figure over the symbol for $"in the case I mention the figure "9" which made the receipt $900 more than the receipt chopped by the shroff.
This concluded the evidence adduced before the Commission.
698
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